*** Rediscovering the Kingdom ***

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

Per a request from a friend, I am putting this in the forums for our discussion. This is not meant to be a 'personal' debate of any kind. This is me, sharing some concepts that I thought were cool. You are welcome to share your thoughts.

You must know that the comments that are coming from me, are from a person who believes in God, believes that the Bible is the Word of God, and that God created us for a purpose.

The thoughts/concepts I am discussing is from a book I have been studying:

Rediscovering the Kingdom by Myles Munroe

I will be referencing some thoughts from this book as well as references from the bible during this dialogue.  Please feel free to join in the discussion.

I understand that some of the first few below statements are long, however they lay some ground work for the discussion. You are more then welcome to skip down to where we are discussing concepts/thoughts and the like.  Again, share your thoughts and join in the fun!:hotbouns:

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Wolverine of Ambush!]

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

This is an Introduction from the book "Rediscovering the kingdom"

"Religion is man's attempt to respond to his desire to find some type of meaningful, and possibly intimate, relationship with a Supreme Being as he seeks to find some reasonable meaning to life. This human search for Ultimate Reality is natural and common to all human cultures. Even in the most primitive societies we find this expression of desire to seek, find, and understand a Supreme Being as eveidenced in the creation, development, and practice of some form of religion. However, the question confronts us: from where did this natural desire and need to seek for a higher power originate? This internal soul-searching irritation-- that there must be a reason and design for the universe and creation-- must have a source. The "long search" for reality obviously implies that something is lost. It is impossible to search for nothing.Therefore it is my contention that the very nature of man's soul search indicates that something he previously possessed is missing.

It also seems that this need to search is not a choice but a necessity. The search is personal as well as corporate. Perhaps the best way to find what is missing and what we are searching for is to identify what you need or desire. For example, thirst implies the need for water, hunger implies the need for food, and tiredness implies the need for rest.

So, we can identify what we lack by what we naturally desire and thus recognize our need. I have come to the conclusion that the common pursuit of all humans is the pursuit of power, the desire to possess the ability to control one's circumstances and destiny.  When I use the term power, I am not referring to the tyrannical, oppressive, dictatorial control of people, but rather the ability to control your circumstances and environment. The human spirit is possessed by this desire to dominate, rule, and control his personal private world and his environment. Man is search of the ultimate governing power of dominion. The desire for power is inherent in the human spirit. To understand this desire for power, it is necessary to understand the original purpose and design of mankind and the assignment for which he was created.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

continuing ........

Are humans simply a link in some evolutionary chain, as proclaimed by the theologians of evolution? Are we simply sophisticated primates participating in the drama of the survival of the fittest? Are we simply a freak accident of some cosmic big-bang mishap from which we emerged from the slime of some cosmic soup as the magnificent resasoning self-conscious being to which we have evolved today? I find it impossible to believe that anyone could believe such a theory. This unreasonable, unsubstantiated, unproven theoretical proposition has no foundation in truth and desecrates the truth of man's origins. It dilutes and diminishes his glorious purpose.

Man is the crowning act of an intentional Creator. He exists as God's co-regent in a world created for him. In examining mankind we will discover the beauty and the mystery of God's purpose for the whole of creation. It seems that the end of all things will be discovered in the beginning of all things. Therefore, we will begin our study by considering God's original plan for His creation. Quite obviously, if we seek to understand the creation, we must first understand the Creator, because the original purpose of any product is only in the mind of the creator of that product. Therefore, to discover the purpose and reason for mankind's creation and existence, we must attempt to tap into the mind of his creator. After all no one knows the product like the manufacturer.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

First, it is essential to understand that before anything was, God is. The word ‘God’ denotes ‘self-existing one or self-sufficient one’ and describes a being that needed nothing or no one to exist. This totally independent God existed before all things and began His creative process by first producing the entire invisible world, which we also have come to know as the “supera” or “above” natural world. This act of creation initiated the concept of “ruler“ and “ruler-ship” as the Creator became the governor over a created realm. Another word for ruler is “king.” God called this invisible realm or domain “heaven” and thus He became the King over the domain, heaven. This was the beginning and creation of the first kingdom called “the invisible Kingdom of God.” This was also the introduction of the concept of “kingdom.” This concept of “kingdom” is critical, essential, necessary, required, and imperative in order to understand, appreciate, and comprehend the purpose, intent, goal, and objectives of God and mankind’s relationship to Him and the creation. It is not unreasonable to ask why God, the King of heaven, would want to create sons in His image and a visible universe. Was He not satisfied and pleased with an invisible realm of angels and powers to rule? I believe the answer to these questions lies in understanding the very nature of God Himself. There is much about this great awesome, self-sustaining One that we do not, cannot, and may never know, but He has revealed enough of Himself to mankind to allow us to glimpse some of the magnificence of His nature and character.
   One such characteristic is the “God is Love” (1 John 4:8,16). Please note that He does not say the He ‘has” love but that He “is” love. This is an important distinction when it comes to understanding His motivation, because if God is love, then His actions would naturally or supernaturally be the manifestation of the nature of love. One of the obvious qualities of love is that love has to give and share itself. If this be so, then the vary nature of God would be to desire to share His rulership and government. In essence, love is fulfilled when it gives and shares itself.
   It is this inherent nature of love that motivated the King of heaven to create spirit children (called mankind) to share His Kingdom rulership. In other words, man was created for the purpose of rulership and leadership. This is why in the message of Jesus, when He described the age of the Kingdom of God and its provision for man, His indication was that this Kingdom belonged to man before earth was created.

‘Then the King will say to those on His right, “Come, you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world”(Matthew 25:34 NIV).

It was God’s idea to share His invisible Kingdom with His offspring, which He called mankind, and to give to them His nature and characteristics.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

I know the above was alot but I wanted to share some of the ground work of this book.

Any thoughts anyone?

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

With all of that being said here is a scripture:

"Then God said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule (have dominion) over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he create him; male and female he created them. ( Genesis 1:26-27 )

Here's a question: God said 'let them'  rule/have dominion over the earth. Does anyone have an opinion of what that means?

[ZWarrior]

Not sure what to say, an interesting clip, but it needs to be developed more.  I fell like I have been left off in the midst of the beginning of the introduction.

[Roadkill]

"The human spirit is possessed by this desire to dominate, rule, and control his personal private world and his environment. Man is search of the ultimate governing power of dominion. The desire for power is inherent in the human spirit."

I found this quote to be very interesting. What exactly is this power that we have? To make the choices that would make us feel like we have the power over our lives? To make a choice in a religion or belief, truly believe that we are right, and then all is right in the world? "My plans for the future are secure, if I was to die today, I would be ready."

Your dominion is secure in that you get to choose your God. This is the ultimate in power, the ultimate control, and it has no restrictions or rules. You can choose to believe anything you like, truly believe it to be true and no one can deny you the freedom of choice. You can believe in anything and the more commonly accepted the religion, the more justifiable it is for you to believe that you are right. "Millions of people can't be wrong can they?"

The quote is right in one thing, Man wants to have control over his life. However, most people are not comfortable with the concept that you create your own religion or beliefs. The morals of right and wrong are unique to everyone, therefore the concept of sin is unique to everyone. You will choose your beliefs based on your structure of right and wrong. You may change you views after you are exposed to different beliefs, but they are still your own and therefore a unique belief/religion. This give Man control over his life, and future, which humankind must feel that they have in order to survive.

[Rogue_Ambush]

I am with Andy on this one. But at the offset, I will say this, You error slightly in saying that we are "Offspring".

I would clarify the wording of offspring and maybe say that we are actually created. We are not as much offspring, as we are created in the image, containing traits and attributes, and such of the creator.

I would suggest a book if I may as well... CS Lewis's Mere Christianity.

Very good book defining the position of us as compared to the creator. But good subject. It will be interesting to see the discussion.

Jeff

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Rogue_Ambush]

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Rogue_Ambush]

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

The statement "offspring" is from the book 'Rediscovering the Kingdom by Myles Munroe'.

Here is the definition of Offspring from a dictionary:
off·spring    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ôfsprng, f-) n. pl. offspring

   1)The progeny or descendants of a person, animal, or plant considered as a group.
   2)A child of particular parentage.
   3)A result; a product.

In his book, he makes a reference to the 'spirit' of man being directly from the Spirit of God, thus making man a composite of the nature, attributes and characteristics of his source, which is God the Creator Himself.  It is also noteworthy at this point to understand that the word for 'source' in the original Hebrew is the word 'Abba' which we translate as 'father'. This is why God is considered the 'father' of all mankind. He sourced us all and thus we possess His nature and likeness.


John 1:12-13
'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.'

Jesus when teaching us to pray tells us when you pray.. to say "OUR Father which art in heaven"

Galations 4:6
'And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit, of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father'

Is it unreasonable to think that we are his offspring of sorts?

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

My original question from one of my above messages:

"Then God said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule (have dominion) over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he create him; male and female he created them. ( Genesis 1:26-27 )

Here's a question: God said 'let them' rule/have dominion over the earth. Does anyone have an opinion of what that means?

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

In my time of being a christian I have always been taught that God, in his integrity of who he is, does not violate his own words. The above scripture would imply that he established the condition of His realtionship to earth through mankind. He did not say 'let us' have dominion over the earth, as that would have given Him legitimate access to earth without reference to mankind; but by these words He established mankind as the only 'legal' authority on earth, with the power of attorney to act on His behalf. Perhaps this is why God has never done anything on earth without the cooperation of a human entity and was ultimately the reason for the necessity of His entrance into the human race as a man. Consequently, Jesus--the man-- made Christ-- the God--legal on earth. This is the power mankind has on planet earth.

[Rogue_Ambush]

Boy, you are a little deep for me here. I would have to take your stuff sentence by sentence, to figure if I agree.

Right now I don't believe I do. But I will have to re-read, then read again...

JB

[Boomslang]

This is a true statement. But it goes a lot deeper than this. Jesus said "Do you not know ye are gods."  "...The works that I do you will do but Greater..." If the Body of Christ would only believe...What a different world we would live in.

I Will have to read the entire thread to see if I agree with the whole thing there are some flaws in some of the kingdom teachings.

[Edited on 10-12-2004 by Boomslang]

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

That's an interesting comment.  "But it goes a lot deeper than this." Can you explain your perspective?

[Roadkill]

" Perhaps this is why God has never done anything on earth without the cooperation of a human entity and was ultimately the reason for the necessity of His entrance into the human race as a man."

Don't you think that this a little presumpstuous that God has only done deeds on this Earth with Man's "permission"? I would like to examine the scripture as well.

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.

That sure is a lot, but no where does it say that Earth itself belongs to Man. We are given dominion over the living things that abide here. This means that the Earth still falls into Gods "territory" and can do with it as he pleases without dealing with Man at all.

[Roadkill]

Even further on this topic, God as the omnipitent being can do as he pleases. Of course no one would like to think of God as an entity that would just screw with our lives just for fun, (I am sure he made Murphy for that so he wouldn't take the rap) be he can do anything that he likes when he feels like it. He may have given us dominion, but not ownership. We are caretakers of Earth, as a physical being and he a spiritual being we are uniquely able to handle this, sort of like landlords. However, the owner can come down, tear it down, change the rules, and do what he likes when he pleases, no permission needed.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

subdue

1. To bring under; to conquer by force or the exertion of superior power, and bring into permanent subjection; to reduce under dominion; to vanquish.

Not to mention the verse right before that:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals, all the earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth."


Does that make sense?

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

Another thought.

Psalm 115:16

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

[Roadkill]

I suppose that subdue could be one of the main words, but I am seeing Rule as one of the more important ones. Rulership does not include ownership. They can go hand in hand, but the are separate. Dominion implies control or rule over a thing, and to rule is to control those said things below you. Think of this as a Owner and a Manager. The manager runs the place, enforces the rules and makes sure that everyone stays in there place and even at times, makes some of the rules to make sure everything runs smoothly. The Owner can direct the Manager, set rules, change them, destroy the business, create more buisnesses or even fire the manager. All this is within his power without asking anyone, he owns it, it belongs to him.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

Roadkill,

Responding to your statement about God being able to do as he pleases....

I am 'able' to beat my wife, but I have 'chosen' to commit to my wife to never do it. So my word of committment is to not to change, although I have the 'ability' to change whenever.

Just a thought.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

The word 'steward' comes to mind. I agree absolutely. We have the responsibility to be good 'stewards' or 'managers' over whatever has been given to us.

[Morpheus]

Well, this thread has progressed much faster than I anticipated, and I haven't had a lot of time to pull together the scriptures and do some of the research that I would like to, but here are some thoughts.

Dominion
In my studies it is well documented that we, meaning mankind and especially believers, have dominion or rule over the earth from an authority stand point. We don't always exercise that authority however.  To really bake your noodle I present the following verses (NIV):
2 Corinthians 4:4 "God of this world (age depending on translation)"
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Ephesians 6:12 "Ruler of the darkness of this world"
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
John 12:31 "Prince of this world"
31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
John 14:30
30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
John 16:11
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
A conclusion that can be drawn is that Satan has some rulership of this world.

Ownership
As for ownership, I do not have a solid opinion either way. I present to you one of Jesus's parables to show the case for us not having ownership:
Mathew 21
The Parable of the Tenants

33"Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35"The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.
38"But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40"Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?"
41"He will bring those wretches to a wretched end," they replied, "and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time."
42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
   " 'The stone the builders rejected
       has become the capstone[8] ;
   the Lord has done this,
       and it is marvelous in our eyes'[9] ?
43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[10]


God's Omnipotence
This is a little off topic, but I would like to address it.  Yes God is Omnipotent, however he also cannot lie, therefore when he says something like "Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life." (Gen 9:15 b), his omnipotence is then restricted.  So yes god is all powerful, but he will never do anything contrary to his nature or character.

[ZWarrior]

I have to agree with Roadkill in that the scripture says that we are to subdue, but does not say that we have ownership of the earth and all that is in it.

The definition of a a steward is as follows:
From M-W.Com:

Main Entry: 1stew·ard
Pronunciation: 'stü-&rd, 'styü-; 'st(y)u(-&)rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English stIweard, from stI, stig hall, sty + weard ward -- more at STY, WARD
1 : one employed in a large household or estate to manage domestic concerns (as the supervision of servants, collection of rents, and keeping of accounts)
2 : SHOP STEWARD
3 : a fiscal agent
4 a : an employee on a ship, airplane, bus, or train who manages the provisioning of food and attends passengers b : one appointed to supervise the provision and distribution of food and drink in an institution
5 : one who actively directs affairs : MANAGER

As you notice, it repeatedly states that a steward manages and directs on behalf of, but not in place of, the owner.

We have all the authority of God in this earth, but not the priviledges of God, and He can do as He will since He maintained the ownership of the earth.

Is he limited to interacting with the earth only through a human host?  I don't see where that is stated as a fact in the scriptures at all.  As a matter of fast, there are situations where man was not involved in things that happened.

As an example, Genesis 19:1-29, specifically vss 24,25 show that He destroyed the plain where Sodom and Gomorrah were without ANY human intervention.  The only human interaction in this section occurs when God saves Lot and his family before the fireworks start.

[Wolverine of Ambush!]

I agree that we have the responsibility to act on behalf of God, a manager of sorts as Roadkill has said.

From the Book "Rediscovering the Kingdom" he shares on DOMINION...this goes along with what we have been discussing.

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The words 'dominion' or 'rule' are synonymous and derive their meanings from the same root words. The Hebrew words from which the concept of kingdom dominion comes are rendered; 'mashal', 'mamlakah', 'malkut' and the Greek derivative is the word 'basileia'. The definition of these words include 'to rule', 'sovereignty', 'to reign', 'kingdom', 'to master', 'to be king', 'royal rule', and 'kingly'. The term 'mamlakah' also signifies the area and the people that constitute a 'kingdom'. It is important to note that the concept of 'king' was also considered the embodiment of kingdom. The king was viewed as the 'symbol' of the kingdom proper and personified the glory of the kingdom. Therefore the definition of dominion can be crafted in the following way:

"To be given dominion means to be established as a sovereign, kingly ruler, master, governor, responsible for reigning over a designated territory, with the inherent authority to represent and embody as a symbol, the territory, resources and all that constitutes that kingdom."

Man was created with a dominion mandate over earth, giving him responsibiility for representing the kingdom government of God on earth. Mankind is heaven's earthly agency for kindom rulership influence. Mankind is intended to embody the nature of God on earth and serve as His divine representative in the physcial world.

The creation and comissioning of man was the first introduction and establishment of the 'kingdom of heaven' on earth.

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