Author Topic: This is getting very annoying.... (Read 15128 times)

ZWarrior · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2002, 08:31:59 AM »

Considering the potential for real abuse, as Spade showed us could be done, we won't have the Allow_FOV set to "yes".

Wolverine of Ambush! · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2002, 02:18:27 PM »

i have used it before but i don't use it all the time by any means. However, i do want to note that this 'option' is part of the game. I understand that to some people it would be considered 'not fair' but wasn't that the same issue with the 'translocator'.

Heck, I didn't know how to use it but it was part of the game. So, i learned to use it.

What's next? No one can use the Norstromo game pad because the ability of over using it?

By all means the decision is up to the games masters SO WHY HAVE A VOTE if those game masters have already said it won't be allowed?

My opinion is there are areas in the key bindings that allow for using creativity for aliases and key bindings. So those of us that search for information about using the game to it's fullest.

Wolverine of Ambush! · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2002, 03:23:30 PM »

******my message was accidentally sent before i finished it.. and then i wasn't ALLOWED to edit my own message... Maybe one of the forum gods could fix that......

?

______________________________
As it looks like the decision was made already... i thought i would just share the rest of my thoughts..

People complained about the translocator because they didn't know what it was, how it worked, or even that it could kill people. The people who researched and use it are complained about ..."it's not fair, they use that thing to move around, they move too fast! they just gibbed me".</I>

I do understand the issue with it being a tourney and making things fair. But because a person has researched the game and knows how to use the game to its fullest, this person then is not allowed to use these pre-programmed options of the game JUST BECAUSE another might/might not have researched them?

I think it is everyone's personal decision to learn about the game and it's functions. It's not anyone's responsibility to educate everyone in the world about their findings nor should anyone be forced to opt out of using ...let's say the Translocator because they may / may not 'potentially abuse' it.

Is it really 'abuse' or is it using what was already available to everyone?

You can turn the translocator off/on...you can turn FOV on/off. These are options in the game. Turning on the options, is allowing players to use the full function of the game and testing their skills using them.

I will play no matter what, i don't really use the FOV thing ...and frankly i don't care if it is on or off....

however.. what is the deciding factor? An EVEN PLAYING FIELD, right? Well, IF that is the case, anyone can use the FOV key binded thing. We ran tourneys when most of us weren't really using the translocator and most of us got WHOOPED by WOTOK and SPADE and that is how the game is played!!!! They weren't cheating, and it wasn't considered 'potential abuse' because they were just using the game options that are available to everyone.

What is the 'potential abuse rating system? (not sarcasm)

Will the translocator :transloc: be taken out because of the 'potential of abuse'? Will hammerjumping :impact: not be allowed as well because it could be 'potentially abused'? (not sarcasm)

If it is decided that the translocator won't be allowed in the tourneys as well, please let me know. It will take some time to get use to not using it. :;(:

Just in case someone could possibly be offended or think i was being sarcastic, i was not being sarcastic. It's just another way of looking at things.

Just sharing my thoughts.....:wavey:

Wolverine of Ambush! · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2002, 03:55:59 PM »

and who's the chicken that voted and didn't leave their name....

he he he he

Boomslang · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2002, 04:18:52 PM »

That would be me I forgot to log in. Yes but you have to go to your ini file(s) and change it. You just can't load the game and push a key to have it work. It,s not fair for the newbees.

Zeet · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2002, 05:17:46 PM »

Everyone has an opinion, and Boy does Wolvie usually us his! My whole outlook on this is that we want to make the games fun for all. Sometimes you need to make the server plain vanilla to give the newer peeps a chance, Yet not too vanilla so that the hardcore peeps won't play. So basically not everyone will be 100% happy, but we decided what are basic rules to not Tick off anyone!

:compute:

:mg-lft:

Wolverine of Ambush! · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2002, 05:30:08 PM »

I will reiterate that I don't care if we have it or not.. i was just throwing out a thought. And I understand that we don't want to upset peeps at the game day. Makes sense.

Spade · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2002, 06:32:17 PM »

My opinion is simply that if you do the research on the game, you will find that the developers made the game in a way that would not allow abuse or the ability to make changes within the game to allow for scripts or bindings to become to powerful. Fov is a built in function of the game and can be turned on and off through the command console. How many of us play with a fov of 90. My guess is not allot of us. My point is that the command console is a part of the game that you can use and find 100 sites that give you the console commands as a tool for the game. In regards to scripting, my opinion remains the same. The entire game functions on the scripts that allow you to do multiple things with the press of a single key. Epic games would not post the scripts and key bindings if it was not part of the game and concidered a cheat. I may represent one who does have the clock set on his VCR but it is because I did due diligence to read the manual and could not stand to be frustrated with the flashing 12:00. Likewise I concider due diligence to understanding the game and its tools to be a endeavor that not everyone will take the time to do. Like the VCR, its not that the resources are not availible or have the built in feature to adjust the clock, its that you need to take the time to figure out how to set it. I may use FOV in instagib from time to time but outside of its primary use of playing at 110 fov, I really dont use it much at all. Last point "Yippie" is will everbody play with the default settings that come with the game or have each of you re-mapped your keyboard? If you have then you have utilized one of the most powerful tools of the game, the ability to conform the game settings to make you play your best. Don't stop there, find out what other features are availible to you to make you play your best! Personally, I think we should not allow the minigun:P :LOL: Lets just go with pistols to even the playing feild for all the newbies. Just my Opinion of course.

ZWarrior · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2002, 06:58:00 PM »

I agree that the translocator issue can be a bit harsh on both sides. But the Translocator is limited in what you can do with it. Limited in that you can't just go from one side to the other and kill at the same time.

FOV however is a different issue. If you code correctly, you can actually look from one side of the map to the other with a sniper rifle, and shoot someone that normally would be out of range. The FOV function can be used to bypass the actual physics of the weapons. If there was a way to limit it to a "reasonable" ( yes I know that is a debate in statement alone ) value, say < 120deg, then I would be more comfortable.

Spade demonstrated the power of the FOV function once for me. We loaded a map and, without FOV, tried sniping across the map. We couldn't get past the middle. He then ran a script that zoomed and changed the FOV. Instant headshots in the other base! That is obviously a bug in the coding, but not an allowable one.

The Rules we use are to cause the tourneys to be a test of skillz, not a test of coding. Strip all scripting away, and put us on a fair playing field, and then let us go. If you are good enough to tag me with the tranny, then you have the skillz for it. If you want to use the tranny to travel the map, then so be it. But to use scripting shortcuts to be me is NOT a test of your gaming skillz. Yes I have a few scripts, but I am not dependant on them. I only started using them recently, and tend to use not scripted moves still.

I am not opposed to scripts, but I am opposed to abusing the system.

Oh yeah, I don't need the minigun to beat you, Spade, I am just as lethal with the double-enforcer.

:mg-rt:

opiesilver · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2002, 11:49:49 PM »

Ummmm....I fragged on the other side of the map on "Face". I hammered my translocator across the map and materialized through another player. It can be done, even without cheating.

I do not condone the use of FOV if you use it to bend the rules of the game.

I do not use scripts. I do not bind multiple series of commands to one key. I play a strait game and still come out on top most of the time. Just ask Spade. I do plan on getting a Nostromo and using the extra keys for key binding sometime in the future. It would be very nice not to have to double tap for a dodge, although I really don't know if it will help my game play or not.

My vote, NO FOV!

Spade · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2002, 08:52:03 AM »

In regards to FOV from a lan standpoint, I believe each of us can have a FOV setting at our pc and it will work regardless of the server. As far as zooming with fov, that is a function of the server. I care less about fov from a zooming standpoint, my point was to make each of you think about your opinions and to have an open mind. Without an open mind, we would be saying its not fair that he has a 2.0 ghz chip and a gforce4 4600. He is cheating! I will say things like EZ_Radar which is not part of the game is a cheat but I dont feel like scripts and bindings done within the standard game are concidered unfair. To end this topic, the server will always decide the bounderies of the game so if you dont like a servers settings, you go to one you do like. In a Lan enviornment, you just play with what the game master has set. I do feel now that the topic has been raised that the allowed settings should be posted. Example: We will be playing straight URT, no fov, low grav, 110 speed, freindly fire, weopons stay.....and so on so everybody knows.....enough on this topic....l8r.

Morpheus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2002, 11:25:13 AM »

Wow

I hit a soft spot.

I brought the topic up mostly so I would know what to expect at the game day. If it's allowed I want to practice using it. I voted yes and below is my reasoning. As others have stated I will play no matter what, and I will work to win no matter the rules.

This is really a debate on two things, scripting and the settings that the server has.

As for scripts and key bindings, it's part of the game! Whether you are changing what key you jump with, or setting up weapon groupings, or changing your FOV, the developers wanted to allow a certain amount of this. Many scripts are not allowed (no one has found a way to script the dodge, except with the nostromo). So the good and bad news is that scripting is not all powerful.

As for the settings on the LAN server for the game day. I have preferences as we all do, I like the FOV thing, that's why I setup the forum. I feel it is the job for the game masters to decide the settings, and whatever they decide I will be happy to play with. I do think that it is important for them to publish the settings so that those of us who are practicing for the tournament can practice in a similar environment.

I see several skills needed to be a great player.
1) Skill, hand eye coordination, speed, this is the obvious one.

2) Strategy/communication most of us know how important this was in the beta team wining the last tournament. A group of mediocre players with good strategy and communication can beat a team of very skilled players that don't have a good strategy or communication.

3) Knowledge of the game. If you know that map you will play better than someone who doesn't. If you have tweaked your machine and the game so that you have better FPS than you may see them before they see you. If you know that there is a setting to change your default FOV to 120 than you have that advantage. If you know that you can right a simple script (I bet Kyle could figure it out) that gives you an advantage over someone who doesn't know that. If you know that there is a secondary fire for the weapons (I didn't know this for my first tournament) that is an advantage. It's a matter of resourcefulness, not abuse, not cheating.

Cheating is using something outside the original game design to artificially improve your performance and gain an UNFAIR advantage that the opponent can't take advantage of. In some regards the nostromo would be considered cheating, although I think we can all agree that it is acceptable.

Once again these are my thoughts on the above topics and are not meant to be offensive. I think good debate and open dialog are good, but let none of us be offended.

I am looking forward to the tournament no matter what the rules are. I would like to know ahead of time so that I am prepared.

ZWarrior · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2002, 12:43:14 PM »

I thing that I have found that makes the biggest difference has been knowledge and command of a map. If you can control the resources in any game, you can limit the effectiveness of ANY player.

Morpheus · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2002, 02:17:08 PM »

So when will you post the maps for the tourney?

Wolverine of Ambush! · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2002, 02:39:52 PM »

THat is a GREAT point Zwarrior.. Controlling the map! Some people don't know how to do that effectively.

Boomslang · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2002, 06:05:19 PM »

What! Do I sence That Zwarrior is fearfull That Wolf can Controll the Him:jawdrop:

opiesilver · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2002, 07:47:51 PM »

Not likely....

Morpheus · « **Reply #18 on:** August 27, 2002, 01:58:04 PM »

the Him? The Map? or ZW? or Wolfy? well at anyrate, it would be nice to practice the maps so that I could control it. I think using the map to my advantage is one of my specialties.

n1c · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2002, 01:01:40 PM »

"Cheating is using something outside the original game design to artificially improve your performance and gain an UNFAIR advantage that the opponent can't take advantage of."

Then are you saying that if I have an aim bot its ok as long as you have one or have access to one?

___________________________

first off I Think anything that makes the game more realistic can and should be done. BUT, FOV can be abbused (i.e. your sniping across the map and you have FOV turned up, well You can see players b4 they can see you even if they are looking right at you.)

Another thing is invisabillity!!!
You can set a binding to be 100% invisable any time you want. now the game allows this and anyone can do it, so do you think its fair if sombody uses this??? if so I'm going to have mine set...

Wolverine of Ambush! · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2002, 02:54:12 PM »

Well, if you do, someone is going to have to catch you.. BUT HOW CAN THEY?

They can't see you... ROFLOL

Morpheus · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2002, 03:14:41 PM »

yeah invisibility would suck...by the way, what setting is that?
LOL

They could see me if they had and FOV script.

ZWarrior · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2002, 08:01:43 AM »

If you are abusing the setting within the game to gain advantage over another person, FOV zoom scripting and invisibility for example, then that is cheating. Do a WWJD and see what comes of that. I can't validate morally using a cheat to win, it would take the sweet taste out of the victory to know that I had to cheat to beat someone, instead of using my God given skillz.

opiesilver · « **Reply #23 on:** August 29, 2002, 08:27:53 AM »

I couldn't agree with you more.

It really all comes down to integrity. Some of you may have a problem with that. If you do, the entire gaming community will find out at F3.

Morpheus · « **Reply #24 on:** August 29, 2002, 09:00:21 AM »

True ZW, the question is where is the line? What scripts/game settings are "moral" to change and which ones aren't. You change the settings for increased visual/audio experience, or to gain an advantage over an oponent. What about always crouching when zooming with the sniper rifle? What about wepon groupings? What about scripting the hammer jump? What about changeing to 3rd person and wide angle so you can look behind yourself quickly? I'm not saying that I want a script to make myself invisible, and I agree the FOV has some definitive advantages, but it can also be a liability. For example, if I know you are invisible, I'll just hide until you grab my flag, then your history! If I think you are using FOV, I'll use it too, and snipe you out of your roost. If you have some other cool script, then I will rely on my skill and quick fingers to take you out.

I'm afraid the answer will be rather elusive, and is up to individual preference/conviction as well as group consensus.

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Author Topic: This is getting very annoying.... (Read 15128 times)